A forensic pathologist said he saw no evidence the neck hold used on Elijah McClain by an Aurora police officer contributed to McClain’s death, and he testified Tuesday that he believed McClain fully recovered from the hold’s effects.

Michael Arnall, who used to work with the Adams County Coroner, spent much of Tuesday morning on the witness stand. He based his opinion that McClain recovered from the neck hold on seeing him continue to move and talk afterward. However, he acknowledged he wasn’t able to tell with certainty how long Nathan Woodyard applied it for or whether McClain actually lost consciousness.

“If a person is telling you they can’t breathe, that means they’re breathing,” Arnall said.

His opinion ran contrary to testimony previously given by Sgt. Kevin Smyth, who has testified in both trials that officers are trained that the idea someone can breathe if they can talk is a “myth.”

Woodyard faces charges in Adams County of reckless manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide in connection with McClain’s death. He was the first officer to stop McClain, 23, the night of Aug. 24, 2019 as he walked home from a convenience store.

A few minutes after the encounter began, Woodyard used a neck hold on McClain that temporarily restricts oxygen to a person’s brain and can induce brief unconsciousness. A paramedic called to the scene later injected McClain with ketamine, a sedative. He stopped breathing and went into cardiac arrest shortly after.

A doctor pronounced him brain dead three days later.

Arnall also expressed doubt about opinions of previous medical experts, called by prosecutors, that McClain suffered from low oxygen and elevated acid in his blood from the struggle with police.

Although Arnall said hospital records showed definitive evidence of acidosis in McClain, he said it’s not possible to say it happened during the struggle with officers without tests done at the scene.

A forensic pathologist testified for prosecutors that the carotid hold started a cycle of increased carbon dioxide buildup in McClain’s blood as he struggled to breathe, causing him to vomit and then inhale it into his lungs, because he couldn’t clear his airway while handcuffed on the ground.

Ketamine toxicity caused McClain’s death, Arnall said.

Woodyard is accused of ignoring McClain’s pleas he could not breathe and not taking steps to notify paramedics of McClain’s symptoms.

Later the jury heard from retired Sgt. Rachel Nunez, Woodyard’s direct supervisor at the time of the incident. She testified she pulled Woodyard aside to talk to him away from the immediate scene when she got there because he seemed “shocked.”

Nunez said she wanted to hear his explanation of what had just happened in an effort to calm Woodyard down.

“His eyes were wide, and he appeared to be shocked and surprised.”

Nunez said she considered the officers on her team “like a family.” When she was asked to identify Woodyard in the courtroom, a common practice at a trial for witnesses who know a defendant, Woodyard’s face flickered in recognition, appearing to give her a small smile.

Nunez testified to the grand jury that indicted Woodyard he appeared to be “going through some trauma because (no law enforcement officer) ever think that (they are) going to use that type of control hold on anybody throughout (their) careers.”

Woodyard’s defense attorney Andrew Ho asked Nunez whether she could hear McClain or other officers while she talked to Woodyard away from the immediate scene. The argument that Woodyard could not hear the struggle after he stepped away, and thus had no say in the decisions made during that period, has been a key part of his defense.

Nunez said she generally could hear the scene, but didn’t pay attention to any specifics because she was focused on her conversation with Woodyard.

On cross-examination, she said she assumed the officers had taken necessary steps to make sure McClain was safe after the carotid hold. But she acknowledged she didn’t know he had thrown up or was having trouble breathing.

Woodyard’s trial resumes Wednesday morning.